A Dialogue on the Attainment of the Fruit

A: Attaining enlightenment and realizing the mind only requires the consciousness to attain it; the manas does not need to attain it simultaneously.

B: After the consciousness attains the fruit and becomes a sage, when one falls asleep at night, is one a sage or an ordinary person at that time?

B: If this person has not yet awakened, is he an ordinary person or one who has attained the fruit? If this person remains in a deep coma forever and never wakes up?

A: The eighth consciousness retains the seeds of dharmas.

B: There are many karmic seeds in the eighth consciousness, including extremely numerous and heavy seeds of hellish karma. Which karmic seed determines his identity?

A: The attainment of enlightenment by the consciousness, which carries heavy karma, is primary.

B: Although the consciousness has attained enlightenment, the manas has not. The greed, hatred, ignorance, and afflictions of the manas are also significant karmic seeds. Aren’t the countless seeds of greed, hatred, and hellish karma in the manas stronger than the karmic seeds of the consciousness’s enlightenment?

A: ·········

B: At the time of rebirth, the consciousness ceases. It is the manas and the eighth consciousness that undergo rebirth. At this time, is rebirth based on the identity of the consciousness having attained enlightenment, or on the identity of the manas as an ordinary being?

A: Rebirth is based on the karmic seeds in the eighth consciousness.

B: The countless seeds of greed, hatred, and afflictions belonging to the manas in the eighth consciousness are certainly stronger than the karmic seeds of the consciousness. The dharmas perfumed by the consciousness will not mature because they are too light, while the afflictive karmic seeds corresponding to the manas are extremely heavy. Where will rebirth occur then?

A: The karmic seeds of the consciousness attaining enlightenment are heavy.

B: Attaining enlightenment corresponds to the consciousness, not to the manas. The wisdom of enlightenment manifests through the consciousness. The afflictive karmic seeds of the manas correspond to the manas, and the karmic actions of afflictions manifest through the manas. At this time, the consciousness ceases and can no longer manifest the wisdom of enlightenment, but the manas will manifest the afflictive karmic actions of greed, hatred, and self-view. Where will rebirth occur then?

A: ········

B: If the study of the Buddha Dharma is all perfumed by the consciousness, how much effect can the consciousness still have in the antarābhava (intermediate state)? In the antarābhava, is the power of the manas’ defiled karmic force greater, or is the power of the consciousness’s perfume greater?

A: Rebirth does not necessarily always pass through the antarābhava. For example, one may directly enter hell or ascend to heaven.

B: Rebirth without passing through the antarābhava occurs only when significant good or evil karma was created during life. Is the good karma of the consciousness attaining enlightenment greater, or is the defiled karma of the manas’ greed, hatred, and ignorance (without attaining enlightenment) greater? If the consciousness attains enlightenment, does one ascend to heaven directly without an antarābhava?

A: Perfuming the true Dharma is ultimately beneficial.

B: Although the true Dharma has been perfumed, greed, hatred, ignorance, and afflictions remain fully present, not diminished at all. The karmic seeds of afflictions are all stored in the eighth consciousness. When afflictive karma manifests in the antarābhava, is rebirth based on the afflictive karma, or does it follow the perfumed Dharma?

A: Rebirth is based on the good karma of the consciousness attaining enlightenment.

B: However, after all, the manas has not attained enlightenment. The greed, hatred, and ignorance during life were extremely heavy. The defiled karmic seeds outweigh the karmic seeds of the consciousness’s enlightenment. Shouldn’t rebirth at this time be determined by the stronger karma first, meaning rebirth occurs with the identity of the manas as a defiled ordinary being?

A: ·······

B: To assume presumptuously that merely studying the Buddha Dharma plants karmic seeds, ensuring rebirth in a fortunate realm and liberation from the three evil paths, is an extremely biased view. Although everyone has perfumed good dharmas, the evil karma in the eighth consciousness remains very heavy. The good dharmas are insufficient to counteract the evil dharmas. Ultimately, the powerful evil dharmas dominate. How then can one avoid the retribution of the three evil paths and be reborn in a fortunate realm? The perfume of the consciousness, no matter how much, cannot overcome the karmic force of the manas. Only by changing the karmic force of the manas can one be assured of rebirth in a fortunate realm. Karmic force is the force of the manas. If the manas does not attain enlightenment, the karmic force cannot be changed. One is bound to follow the defilements of the manas to receive retribution in the three evil paths. The circumstances at the time of death for countless Buddhists prove this principle.